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Post Info TOPIC: San Rafael location help wanted


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RE: San Rafael location help wanted
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Date: Aug 14, 2008
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This is the only image that I have of the fire. The San Rafael Library has archives that has news clippings and such on it.

Attached files 330=70-lowres.jpg

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Date: Aug 14, 2008
 
  
 

I noticed that in the parking garage under the window blinds store.

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Date: Aug 13, 2008
 
  
 

The buildings in the D Street at 4th Street photos are still there expect the one on the right, which was destroyed in the fire. Part of the foundation survives in the underground parking area. The fire was between D and E streets.

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Date: Aug 4, 2008
 
  
 

O.K. It makes sense now Paul. I used to work at Burns Florist. In the front / right portion of the building was the little greenhouse. That could very well be the building with the ( what looks to be opaque ) green roof. I'm sorry I ever doubted you.

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Date: Jul 31, 2008
 
  
 

It's definitely 5th and B, looking west. We checked in at the library again this morning, and the 1954 phone book shows Bob Coman's Super Service at 5th & B as a Union 76 gas station and also advertising Gates tires - the only Gates tires location listed. On-site inspection (i.e. we went there) shows that only one building in the photo is still there, the one on 5th up the street from the station (behind the parking meter and 76 sign). In 1954 it gave the address as 1230 Fifth, the location of Burns Florist; today it's Union Bank, and has parking on the roof. Most convincing, though, is that on the east wall there are visible remnants of those eaved, green-roofed extensions, like the one behind the parking meter. Kudos to my sister Rosemary for spotting that.



According to the City Directory, on this side of the street, starting at the corner, there was:

1121 Fifth: Marin Travel Service

1117 Fifth: KTIM

1115 Fifth: an office building with 2 professional tenants and the Marin Co. Surveyor

Then the San Rafael City hall



Across the street in this block:

1120 Fifth: Elks Club

1114 Fifth: American Auto Assn

1104 Fifth: St. Raphael's Rectory



So the Hudson is probably parked in front of 1121 or 1117. It's interesting that the 1115 building held both the county surveyor and civil engineer John C. Oglesby, who served at both engineer and surveyor for the city of Larkspur, where we lived. We may have stopped there to do some business related to the property. There's also a possibility that my brother was stopping in at KTIM; sometime during his senior year, they broadcast a radio play that he and other Marin Catholic students produced. I believe it was recorded at the studio, and he wound up with a tape of it. We didn't belong to the AAA, we never traveled anywhere and nobody was an Elk.



Thanks to everybody who offered suggestions and participated in this escapade!



Below is the shot again, leveled this time and this link to the big, but not straightened, version.



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Date: Jul 29, 2008
 
  
 

As Pangolin pointed out, the building (E St School, which I think was the original San Rafael High School) is across the street, the same street as the gas station.



But now I'm also going with Pangolin about it being 5th and B instead, because where the station would be at 4th & E sits Bananas at Large and Bordenave Bakery in the old car dealer (Wisnes Honda etc)

That could have been built later but the slope is not that steep and the biggest problem is the Hudson would have been parked in front of bank tha pre-dates that pic and I still there today. I think it's Sonoma National.



Also why no sidewalk and the driveway is too close to the intersection.



That sure looks like a school.



But wait, The car would be sitting in front of the old IJ building at 5 & B. It's not there and didn't it pre-date the photo?

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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

Looking more closely at the reflection in the car you can distinctly see a red curb. I assumed that the building reflected was directly behind the tree and meter which you can also see reflected. So it almost looks like you're looking across another road fronting the building seen in the reflection, which keeps making me think of the old School Administration building on 3rd & E. There's also clearly the shadow of a building falling directly in front of the car, which would have had to have abutted the sidewalk just past the alley, behind the camera.



But again, the terrain just doesn't match that location at all. The only match I can see is still the 5th & B intersection. It does look like there's a berm behind the garage in the picture, but that could be leveled in a couple of hours.



BTW, don't you wonder what kind of mileage that car got?

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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

Steve;248 wrote: I like Dewey's idea but I still think parking meters were not that far out.



The Dr.'s spot at 4th & F is a bldg. (Dharma Trading) that I think predates 1957.



A block down at 4th & G is a much older (30's) gas station that's still there in the form of Hana Restaurant. You can still get a lube job, but the service bay is a wine bar !



I'm going with Rosemary who is acting like an observer (aren't you sitting in the back seat ?!?)



I'll go look, but the slope looks steeper than it is and also the bldg. there now, I think also pre-dates 1957



It could be in West End. Close to the Miracle Mile. Maybe the corner where the YardBirds nursery is now. But the hill there is probably too steep, and at that time I think that spot was still the WJ Bell auto dealership.

(No, I'm not in the back seat. I was away at school at that point in time.)

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Rosemary


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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

I like Dewey's idea but I still think parking meters were not that far out.



The Dr.'s spot at 4th & F is a bldg. (Dharma Trading) that I think predates 1957.



A block down at 4th & G is a much older (30's) gas station that's still there in the form of Hana Restaurant. You can still get a lube job, but the service bay is a wine bar !



I'm going with Rosemary who is acting like an observer (aren't you sitting in the back seat ?!?)



I'll go look, but the slope looks steeper than it is and also the bldg. there now, I think also pre-dates 1957

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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

How about the Miracle Mile? It has hills on the north side, and they didn't open the eastbound lanes (which had been double rail tracks) until many years after the trains pulled out in 1941 (I think I've heard the late 1950s). Just a thought.

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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

I have a feeling it's 4th and F st. It looks like the liquor store in the background, and Jack Hunt's ? car dealership.

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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

Pangolin;236 wrote: Here's what the corrected image looks like, to get a better idea of the angle of the hillside.






Is that reflection on the side of the car the E Street School? You know they changed that whole intersection south of the school. And today's 904 E St may not be in the same place? 3rd & E or maybe 4th & E?



It sure is weird. It looks so familiar, especially the white wooden house on the hill, and the one with the red tile roof.

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Rosemary


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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

About the reflection. I'm still stuck on the open space between the Hudson and the next street (or lane or whatever it is.



Is this a whole block or a park like strep, or center divider of some sort ?

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Date: Jul 26, 2008
 
  
 

Jason, I did quick reply so that's fixed.



The picture has to be facing West. That's the very first thing I quickly decided.



Where in Downtown would you see an upslope on your right facing East ?



Of course Paul could have flipped it. All my old slides (non of Marin) seem to be backwards for some reason.



I think the big key here is the parking meters.



I have no facts, But I seriously doubt they went West of E St or East of Tamalpais. North of Mission, or South of 2nd.



Of course I could be wrong.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

rick;237 wrote: At this point I'm wondering if this photo was actually shot in San Rafael. I'm looking at the reflection in the car. There is a building that stretches for what looks like a city block. There seems to be a line of roll up doors down the entire length. I don't recognize this location at all.



Did any other Marin towns have parking meters in 1954?

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

At this point I'm wondering if this photo was actually shot in San Rafael. I'm looking at the reflection in the car. There is a building that stretches for what looks like a city block. There seems to be a line of roll up doors down the entire length. I don't recognize this location at all.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

Here's what the corrected image looks like, to get a better idea of the angle of the hillside.





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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

Paul, you're right, I stand corrected....I didn't look at the big shot. It's 5th and B st. The sign says GAS and GATES TIRES.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

If you look at the full size version on Shorpy, you can see that what looks like a hill is just some trees or bushes, or at least the leafless branches of same. Those and other tree branches appear reddish as a byproduct of the heavy color correction done on this now-very purple Ektachrome transparency.



But also - d'oh! - right above the Hudson's roof is a sign partially obscured by a pole, located on or adjacent to the station lot. And it seems to be about tires: "G__S" above and "GA_ES T__ES" below. Why I didn't pay attention to this before is beyond me. More old directory checking is in order. Boy.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

You guys sound like detectives on CSI :) The slope of B st. is a dead giveaway and it even looks like they replanted the same kind of tree on the corner. It's definitely 5th & B st. of course that's assuming you know for sure the pic was taken in San Rafael.



Revision: On second thought maybe it isn't any of those intersections...it looks like there's a fairly high hill directly behind the gas station and I seriously doubt they leveled that hill and took down those large trees for the new buildings...but I could be wrong.



[/IMG]

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

Thanks - I think that pretty much rules out 2nd & Lincoln, so 5th & B is probably it. There's a faux-old building at the southeast corner now - I wonder what was there when we parked the Hudson in front of it. There has to be a reason we were there - conducting business at some kind of establishment, I presume. These were the days, of course, when you could always find a parking spot right in front of the place you were going to!

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

Well Paul,I can guarantee its not 2nd and Lincoln,because I remember that station when it was still the old style.The building was an art decco style from the 30's.It faced the same direction as the current building,which wouldnt work for your picture.I guess your brother doesnt remember?

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

I figured the one in front of the car was a driveway; notice how the pavement surface rises along the curb, as if it were sloping up to meet the sidewalk, and also the gutter continues across.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

Paul,The curb is short only one car can park there because theres a street behind and in front of the car.So I'm looking at the street configuration of all three addresses in my 1956 thomas guide.5th and B loooks like a possiblity because Julia st splits the block parallel between 5th and 4th.I'm not sure which corner the station was on.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

I'm pretty sure it was taken in the later morning in the fall, which means we're probably facing west.



I can't bring up any readable detail on the truck from the hi-res scan, unfortunately.

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Date: Jul 25, 2008
 
  
 

I looked at all three locations, and only 5th & B looked plausible in terms of the terrain. It's hard to tell though because the landscape is so completely different now. I rotated the original shot in photoshop to make the parking meters and lamp posts correctly vertical, and the hillside is much more pronounced which would tend to rule out the Lincoln Ave. location. Not sure about the E St. location though. Also I can't tell whether the picture was taken facing east or west.

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Date: Jul 24, 2008
 
  
 

Is there anyway to find out what name is on the door of that truck on the right?

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Date: Jul 24, 2008
 
  
 

Back to my original question about the location of this 1954 shot of our Hudson in San Rafael:







Today at the Civic Center library's California Room, I checked City Directories and phone books for the period and came up with three Union 76 stations in San Rafael:



Second & Lincoln (700 Lincoln Ave.), variously called "Charlie & Roy's" or "Todd Franklin's"




View Larger Map



Fifth & B (1206 Fifth), Todd Franklin's second location




View Larger Map



904 E St., variously called "Cliff Sasselli's," "Farmer's Union" or "Stan Purdom's"




View Larger Map



Even though there's a gas station at the corner of Second & Lincoln today, you'll notice that the side street at the right in the original is on an upslope (which would be more apparent if the image were leveled), so it seems like the Fifth & B location would be more likely. (You can rotate and move back and forth in the Google street views.) Thoughts? Confusing, isn't it?

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Date: Jul 23, 2008
 
  
 

Hello,Dewey I like the ariel photos.Do you have any more?

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Date: Jul 23, 2008
 
  
 

yes that is 4th and D.You can see part of the Odd Fellows lodge on the left.The whole block burned down in 1957. The fire started in a paint store on the north side of D st behind the lodge.More old buildings gone.

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Here's a view of San Rafael, I think it's Fourth and D around 1948 before the fire, looking east. Someone may correct me on that, I haven't been into town to check.

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Here's the photo I intended to post of near-downtown San Rafael. Paul P., I can get you higher rez versions but need help, since anything over 100kb or so gets gummed up as I upload.

This photo shows the area of San Rafael High, the yacht basin where Montecito Shopping Center is, the original 1941 overpass, etc. I have a bunch of these original negatives although some prints may be in the California Room.

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In that 101 pic with Litchfields, in the foreground on the west side of the hiway there is a big quonset hut. I think that may have ended up being Western Chrome Plating Shop. talk about a trip in the wayback machine. whoaaaa

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Dewey wrote:

Ooops, that's one of the area east of downtown, with the new Litchfield buildings on East Francisco and the canal behind. Enjoy!






Great photos, this and the gas stations. Where do they come from? Is it possible for you to get higher resolution versions, or with less jpg compression? Either way, keep 'em coming!

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Ooops, that's one of the area east of downtown, with the new Litchfield buildings on East Francisco and the canal behind. Enjoy!

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Yes, I thought I had heard that the buildings called the French Quarter had been moved to the east side of the freeway from the west side when the new viaduct was added, but I guess I'm wrong on that one. Anyway, here's a picture taken around 1950 of the area, although the block in question is off frame.

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Paul Penna wrote:

Dewey wrote:

Good observations, you two. One thought: didn't they move those Victorian buildings to that site when they widened the freeway in 1970? Or most of them?





They wouldn't have had to, because the new viaduct was built to the west of the old one.




That's right. Those houses have always been there. Knew some kids who lived in one of them when I went to school in San Rafael. There was actually one more house; that was torn down about the time the "French Quarter" was created. The houses were originally built to house railroad workers in the early 1900s, is what I remember.

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Rosemary


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Dewey wrote:

Good observations, you two. One thought: didn't they move those Victorian buildings to that site when they widened the freeway in 1970? Or most of them?





They wouldn't have had to, because the new viaduct was built to the west of the old one.

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bry


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Yes,I thought the french quarter houses were moved there, but if you look at that ariel photo of san rafeal in the 50's, it show's a row of houses. Maybe they tore those down and replaced them. That seems wierd, anyone have any input on that? Any more of those cool gas station pictures?

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Good observations, you two. One thought: didn't they move those Victorian buildings to that site when they widened the freeway in 1970? Or most of them?

Paul: the viaduct went in in 1941; it was reportedly the second freeway in the world (Pasadena being the famous first). They added the second viaduct in 1970, which I remember because I took pictures of workers there for a high school project.

Trivia: Didja know they called the new highway stretch from the viaduct to Gallinas Valley, that replaced Petaluma Road (renamed Lincoln Avenue), was called the Dumbbell Highway?

For your edification, here's another Texaco, at the Hub, I think:

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bry


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I think that texaco is at 4th and Irwin. The house behind the station is gone but the building behind the house where the car is parked, is san jose taqueria. The person who took the picture is standing on Irwin facing 4th toward the overpass. There's a 60's style gas station on the property now that's currently a dry cleaning buisiness. The old house at the far left is still there part of the French Quarter row of houses.A dermatology buisiness is in there.This is my geographical opinion.

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That Eddie Bracken poster shows him in a pose similar to that from his film "The Miracle of Morgan's Creek" from 1944. When did they build the viaduct?

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Dewey wrote:

Not being in San Rafael much these days, I can't help, but how about this Texaco? The photo was taken around 1950, might be Lincoln at Fifth or Mission; there are other shots of more Texaco stations (one at Red Hill).






Man, what a great shot of a great station. There's the San Rafael viaduct in the background. Presumably they don't still call it the viaduct.

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Not being in San Rafael much these days, I can't help, but how about this Texaco? The photo was taken around 1950, might be Lincoln at Fifth or Mission; there are other shots of more Texaco stations (one at Red Hill).

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Paul, My 5th & Cottage should be 5th & Nye. I was thinking of Cottage Hospital on Nye.

There is/are maybe several old homes on 5th and/or Mission that have/had what looks like an added room or sun porch on the back. I'm thinking of one right now on 5th between E and F.

I think there is another one by Mission & Lincoln where a 76 is today but the rest doesn't fit.
Another station was at 5th & Lincoln which is now a parking lot at the rear of the restaurant in the location of your Used Car building fire shots.

If I can print that pic at the library I will somehow nail this down.

It's the reflection in the chick magnet of an automoblie that really messes me up.

I almost went with 2nd & C where the Belli Deli is and I know used to be a gas station.
Thinking the empty space in the reflection was where the railroad tracks use to be.
But there are old homes across the street, looking different to me than in the reflection.

The problem with old gas stations is, If I counted 28 stations in Mill Valley when I was a kid, and now there are 6, how many were in SR ?

I love the story of when they were redoing the Rafael Theatre. They had to tear up the rear part on the alley in back (Julia St) they found a service station gas tank underground that had been abandoned and no old timers could recall a pump there.



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Thanks Steve; that's in line with my notion/memory that it's on 5th St. Note that the side street alongside the gas station goes uphill - more noticeable when I straighten the picture out. I tried using Google maps streetview, but too much has changed. I was hoping to spot that white house above the station. I'll have to check the 1954 City Directory for a 76 station next time I'm at the library.

It's "Krieger & Sons San Francisco" on the license plate frame. Been trying to track them down, too. SF Assessor records that I've been able to access online leads me to believe they were on Geary a bit west of Masonic.

Everybody in our family was born by the time we got the Hudson, and Father never taught any of us to drive, so I'm afraid it had no effect on procreation.

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Brutal, simply brutal. I thought you were a friend.

That reflection is driving me nuts. I have to leave that out.
(It looks like it's an empty lot, block, or center divider, with the bldg on the next street)

I'm going with:

5th & Cottage
5th & Court
5th & B
5th & C

It's one of those four. (unless it's not)

Paul, That's a studmobile. A ride for a guy who gets chicks.

Now I know how your family got started !

I like the MC sticker and is that Rossi & Sons on the lic. frame ?

-- Edited by SteveC at 17:35, 2008-06-28

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I've been posting some of our photos to Shorpy (a fabulous site, by the way), including one of our Hudson parked on a street in San Rafael c.1954. I'm trying to nail down the location. In the background, there's a Union 76 station, and some other buildings that might be identifiable. For an additional challenge, there's also one reflected on the side of the car. Click "View full size" at the end of the caption to blow it way up. Click here to see it.

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