Classic signs , billboards and traffic control devices

Paul Penna · Status: Offline

RE: Classic signs , billboards and traffic control devices

Paul · Status: Offline

Paul P. I don't know when they first starting putting out the buttons on the
skip lines , but if you look close at your picture it looks to me that they were
installed. But I don't see any reflectorized RPM's. What you might be seeing
in between the skip lines might be " cat tracking " dots of paint used to
layout the lanes for the striping machine. I used to do a lot of layout and
striping , and have installed thousands of buttons ( Bots dots ) and raised
pavement markers. I don't remember RPM's installed on roads in Marin
before 1970 , but the State might have been using them before the
County and the City's.

Paul Penna · Status: Offline

Here's the Waldo Grade in October 1964. Too bad about the traffic, huh?

Couple of cool, big-finned cars: the red 1959 Chevy El Camino going south and in the northbound lanes, a silver 1961 Chrysler.

For Paul/Storocco: note the absence of Botts' dots, although there are reflectors mounted between the dashed lines.

Trivia question for all: Which bore of the Waldo tunnel was the original, north- or southbound?

-- Edited by Paul Penna at 03:10, 2007-04-12

Paul · Status: Offline

Hli Paul P. , Great pics of L.C.M. staff, I went to that school from 1963 to 66.
The principal ( Gilbert Slusher ) ordered me to cut my hair in 1966.
Answer to your first question was , the City of Novato , besides the County of Marin ,
Novato was the first city in Marin to recognize the importance of signs and street
painting and they formed a seperate division of the street dept. called " Traffic
Operations " All other little citys didn't think signs were very important and had
their laborers put up signs . Hal was taught by the AAA sign man who was retiring
and AAA decided to get out of the sign business .
When I started working for Novato in 1978 , I was assigned to work in the street dept.
I heard they wanted someone to work in Traffic Operations and begged to get in , and
I did after a few months. I did not really like the street dept. shoveling hot , black ,
smelly asphalt and running a jackhammer was not my cup of tea. Hal trained me to run
the division and retired 2 years later. I was the only qualified person in Marin for the job even
though I was only 22 years old, they had no other choice but to promote me.
It was truly a highly specialized job with no competecion.
I remember the street name signs in Ross also , with a property rent ( tax ) of 1.5%,
most all streets have no curb , gutter and sidewalk , and they had those pinche street
name signs. Ross is really a high rent district , since the state owns all land in
California , those people pay a hilotta rent to have buildings there , and then there's
the price of the buildings themselves. Outta Sight !

Paul Penna · Status: Offline

Very interesting info, Paul/Storocco. Where were you when I was 10 years old and first brimming over with questions about this stuff? Don't answer that.

When you say you worked in "Traffic Operations," what city was that? Great story about the 2-sided Stop signs!

One thing about those porcelain black-on-white street name signs; they may have been expensive and difficult to fabricate, but at least they could be read easily from your car, and from a distance. As you say, computers have made things easier, but as in so many areas, computers mean that anybody can make them, including people who have no expertise. Look at all the ugly web pages and jumbled-up newsletters that get created by people who have no talent but do have a copy of a page layout program. For example: in the older parts of Petaluma, the street name signs are now done in a faux-art deco typeface, similar to the shareware computer font Anna. I suppose it was someone's bright idea to give them an olde-towne appearance, but you can't read the stupid things until you're already at or going through the intersection. If they really wanted to go for an authentic vintage feel, they'd at least make them look like those old porcelain ones. And you'd be able to read them in time to make the turn.

Being road sign conscious as a kid, I of course noticed the unique look of the street name signs in Ross during the 50s. Actually, "unique" in this case translates to "cheap." They were obviously home-brew affairs, the lettering done by stencil. Every other town in Marin had the professional porcelain kind, but Ross, of all places, had these rinky-dink, do-it-yourself jobs.

First traffic signals in Larkspur: I don't know for sure, but my guess is either the corner of Magnolia and Doherty or Magnolia and Bon Air.

Paul · Status: Offline

Paul P. I worked in Traffic Operations for over 10 years. We fabricated street name signs
and all traffic control signs. The person who taught me was Harold Owen , and he learned
it from the AAA sign man. Yes AAA used to fabricate and install all traffic signs as part
of their service to all public entities. They made those old STOP signs with the " cat's
eyes " as well as those black on white porcelin signs , which were actually 2 signs
back to back , what a lot of work. Later we bought aluminum blanks , baked on 3M
reflective sheeting and layed out die cut letters and numbers and baked them on.
Now they use a computer controlled router , all we have to do is type out the
sign and size and series of letter , and the computer lays it out and cuts it, so easy
now.
When I first started in the dept. I was making 2 sided street name signs , and then
Hal asked me to make up 10 Stop signs while he had to go to City Hall. So I made
up 10 2 sided STOP signs. Hal came back and almost blew a gasket - 2 sided STOP
signs. He made me get some spray paint and fix my mistakes.
The public has no idea how much it used to cost them to replace all the stolen
street name signs , especially the popular girls names.
Do you remember when they put the first signal in Larkspur ? It must have been
after 1966. I remember when M.V. had no signals , now they have 5 signalized
intersections , and when I left the City of San Rafael in 1987 , we had 72 signals.
If anyone has questions about how signal systems work I would be happy to
answer them , I like to test my memory , because I'm a high end residential
electrician now and kind of miss signals , but not the traffic.

Paul Penna · Status: Offline

Man, you've hit on one of my strongest childhood interests, or obsessions is more like it: roads, freeways and traffic signs. At one point I turned our whole back yard at 9 Arch St. (in size the equivalent of about two good-sized lots) into an incorporated town I called "The City of Penton." I gave all the paths through the various gardens and orchards street names and made street signs for them, lettering them on heavy cardboard with a stencil set and mounting them on grape stakes. I painted the stakes with the then-official street sign post color scheme, white with a black base. If I could have figured out a way to make stop signals, I'm sure I would have had them, too. Yes, I was a weird kid.

In the good old days, street signs were heavy metal, often embossed, with an enamel surface. If reflectivity was required, little circular reflectors were mounted in the lettering. The oldest signs still around in the 50s & 60s often had a diamond AAA logo at the bottom. I never quite figured that out. Did the auto club contribute those, or help pay for them? To see what I'm talking about, check out the "Hub 1969" picture in the San Anselmo 1960s gallery from the main page here. The Fairfax/Point Reyes etc. directional sign has one of the AAA logos.

Then there were those little round black oil pots that were lit to cordon off areas of road construction. They looked kind of like the stereotypical anarchist bombs you'd see in comic strips. Today, of course, they use flashers.

Traffic-trippers for stop signals always caught my attention as well. These days they're magnetic sensors buried in the asphalt, but those electro-mechanical ones I recall were like panels embedded in the pavement right near the light. I remember my mother railing about a friend of hers she was riding with one day when they came up Bon Air Drive at the intersection with Sir Francis Drake. Her friend stopped before the trip panel and sat there waiting for the light to change, until my mother finally pointed out what the thing was for. "Oh, is that it?" her oblivious friend said in amazement.

I don't remember any signals in Marin with the "Stop" and "Go" flippers that swung up, but there were still some in San Francisco in the 50s, complete with bells.

Paul · Status: Offline

I am still a certified traffic signal electrician and a member of the International Municipal
Signal Association. One of our members has recently put out a request for
some photos of nostalgic traffic signals , if anyone has photos , please post.
Remember ( before my time ) the old signals that had flippers for STOP and GO ?
Of course the first signals in Marin were the railroad signals , gates and bells , but
those are seperate from public signal systems , although when a train crosses
a signalized intersection , we install and maintain the railroad pre-emption devices
in the intersection controllers.
I remember as a kid the only traffic signals I saw were in San Rafael. Most were
pre-timed electro mechanical controllers but I remember seeing some controllers
that said " traffic actuated " They showed a tire and lightning bolts underneith.
I don't know how the vehicles were detected , but I think it was magnetic plates ,
now it's mostly induction loops and video.
Remember the days before reflectorized raised pavement markers ? I do.
Driving on Panoramic Hwy. at 3 in the morning returning to Stinson Beach
on a foggy night after extensive partying in M.V. ( which I had to do many a time )
all I had to go by was pure memory of the turns , visibility was less than 3 feet.
The pavement markers were a great improvement to our safety.
Remember the billboards we used to allow on 101 ? They used to be hand
painted, the design was done in the shop , outlined with a pounce wheel and
chalked and painted in place. Later they were done with computer programs
( Photoshop ) designed , scanned and printed in tiles in the shop and
then intstalled on the board with precision. Some of those old billboards
were truly works of art. Does anyone remember or have photos of some
of them ? The one I remember was the Coppertone suntan lotion board ,
it showed a kid giving the " BA " on the freeway.